User:Fangirl111/GiveElsaAGirlfriend Thoughts

'''Note: Just like with a Profile, it is bad etiquette to edit a page under someone's Username without permission. As such, I ask that just like with a Profile you do not edit this whatsoever. Any suggestions, such as correcting grammar or spelling, can be made directly on my Message Wall.'''



Background
December 16-18, 2018

Recently I gave my thoughts on a Forum Thread here about the hashtag #GiveElsaAGirlfriend. I'm sure everyone already knows about this hashtag, but if not then feel free to ask me about it and I can explain it. The post was regarding Elsa possibly receiving a love interesting in the sequel, and some of the possible cons if that happens. The Thread has been moved to a blog post, however, so I have decided to simply make my own page under my Username and link it to my Profile instead! ^^ In addition to the Forum Post's points, I've added in many more points that I see made often, including on outside websites such as Tumblr and DeviantArt.

Do feel free to message me about any of these thoughts, by the way! I LOVE debates that are interesting and complex, and I'm always willing to look through another viewpoint, as per usual. Also, feel free to debate about any of the Disney Princesses (here or on that specific Wiki, which I can link to personally if you want since I don't want to advertise here without knowing if that is permitted or not) with me, I love them SO SO SO much and have SO many thoughts ^U^ Please remember to keep things civil, I like to be as objective as possible and examine both sides with equal honesty and depth, so please keep that in mind. I don't mind subjectivity, so long as it doesn't cause disrespectful or harsh tones to any other people in the discussion, especially if the other people disagree with your POV.

So alas, without further ado, my thoughts on #GiveElsaAGirlfriend!

My Replies and Thoughts
December 17, 2018


 * Elsa is strong and independent. (Looking at this point as whole, not just as part of the #GiveElsaAGirlfriend trend.)


 * Elsa is a role model who comes to accept herself, she doesn't need a romantic relationship - man or woman. These traits and qualities could be reduced and possibly destroyed entirely if Disney were to give Elsa a love interest.


 * Giving Elsa a man would discourage little girls from being confident in themselves without a relationship.

Um, ahaha...Yeah, this is probably going to be disagreed with by a LOT of people, but I strongly believe Elsa is not independent. Like, at all. First of all, she's not exactly an active character, she's a reactive one. You know who is an active character? Anna, that's why she's the protagonist. Elsa was told what to do by her parents, and she did it. Reactive. Elsa's parents died and she still continued doing as they told her. Reactive. Anna kept reaching out, even after their death. Active. Elsa avoids confrontation with Anna at her coronation, Anna yanks her glove off. Active. Elsa runs away in response. Reactive. Elsa makes her ice palace. "That's active! Isn't it, Ember??" Well, no. She only built it because she ran away from everyone, she wouldn't have created it on her own account, she would have kept shutting people out and running her kingdom if Anna had never asked for her blessing to marry Hans, so no, this is not an active moment, it's a reactive one. Especially when you consider that all she sings about has to do, in one way or another, with Arendelle. Anna goes after her. Active. Elsa blasts Anna in the heart by accident due to the stress of her now knowing about the storm she created, something she only knew about because of Anna. Reactive. Anna ultimately saves her in an active character moment, while Elsa sits there unable to save herself. Reactive. Elsa cries, and Anna returns back to normal. This is again not active, she didn't cry because she knew it would help Anna, she did in reaction to the events around her. Again, reactive.

Now, I know someone might say, "but she fought the guards when Han's was attacking her! That's active!" but again, no, it isn't. She fought in reaction to what was happening around her, if anything, Hans was the active character in that scene. The truth is that Elsa isn't very independent, everything she does is a reaction to the characters around her, not due to her own choices. Now, I'm not saying that no reactive characters can be or are ever independent, but in Elsa's case, the most independent thing she ever did was run away and fight guards, that's not very good for a role model. She didn't even try to fight Hans when he was about to literally kill her, she had to be saved, by a man or no. This also applies for her being a "strong" character, in terms of emotion, everything above applies, but in terms of her magical abilities and ability to fight, then one could say she is strong.

Considering that I don't believe she's strong or independent based on how her character is built as a whole, I would have to say that I don't necessarily believe that her receiving a romance would jeopardize this aspect very much. I can see how people would think this, though, and in their POV I can understand this worry, especially if they see her as a role model for young girls. That said, I hope she would become an active character who saves her partner, instead of needing to rely on them. I think it's a bit flawed to think that because she's in a relationship she can't be independent or strong anymore, that isn't a healthy way of thinking. A romantic partner should be someone who compliments you and your personality, not a missing piece of the puzzle that you're incomplete without. That sounds too much like Hans imo ("I've been searching my whole life to find my own place" is a good example of this, but the whole Love Is an Open Door song is literally about "completing" each other, including the heart they make with their hands.), while Kristoff actually does lean on the side of being a compliment to her personality rather than a missing piece. Keep in mind, though, that this is not just a problem here, but rather in many Disney movies. Kiara and Kovu are by FAR the worst offenders of this, they literally complete each other like puzzle pieces, and it's a huge deal, too!


 * Elsa proved that life is not about romance - with a man or a woman - by remaining single and yet still being happy. This motivational example could be wrecked and the myth that being single equates or is synonymous with being miserable would be promoted instead if Elsa gets any type of romance. She did what no other Disney Princess has done: Be happy being single! Giving her a romance would ruin this message by contradicting it.

Both my previous points apply here as well, and wouldn't Anna be a direct contradiction to these points? Again, I would argue she would have been happier knowing a romantic partner doesn't mind her being different. She also was not the first Disney Princess to stay single and be happy, Merida was, and her movie's central focus what around the whole concept of it. Also, Moana, although newer, also stayed single and didn't mind at all.


 * People love Frozen because it's about family love, not romantic love, it's the sister's love that saved them, which differed from any other Disney Princess movie at the time. 


 * Giving Elsa a boyfriend or a girlfriend would overshadow the sister relationship/theme of sisterly love.

Yes, of course, but even so Disney still felt the need to cut this message short by having Anna end up in a romantic relationship in the end anyway. One of the reasons I used to dislike this movie was that it didn't actually have the guts to go all out on this message. It seems progressive at first when Elsa tells Anna that she can't marry a man she just met (as if she would have any clue regarding romance anyway considering she was isolated from everyone?), but after Han's betrayal you would think she would have learned that lesson for herself, right? Nope. She gets with Kristoff, someone she doesn't know any better then she did Hans. Remember all those questions Kristoff quipped to her to prove she doesn't know Hans well enough? Do you think she could legitimately answer any of them if some other guy asked the exact same questions but about Kristoff instead of Hans? Moreover, Anna still believed that kissing a guy would save her after Han's betrayal, she was still heading over to Kristoff. Yes, she ultimately decided to try to save Elsa instead, but it's not like she knew that would save her, she still believed she needed a man to save her. And she still ultimately hooked up with that man, too. One could say that she knew Kristoff longer than Hans, but let's be honest.


 * All Elsa needed to feel happy again was her sister in her life, she stayed single the whole movie and didn't need a romance to feel complete.

Yes, but she also never had a chance to get romantically involved, either. Would she be smarter then Anna about it? Perhaps, but most likely due to cynicism and difficulty trusting, not experience or any sort of general knowledge. Don't forget, they were both locked away for over a decade, she would not realistically be any smarter than Anna. Also, she was happy because she was accepted, by her sister and her people, the fact that she was single would not have made any difference. In fact, I would argue she would have been happier knowing a romantic partner doesn't mind her being different.


 * Just because Elsa doesn't need a man doesn't mean she's a lesbian.


 * If Elsa were to be in a relationship, she would be with a man, not a woman! This is Disney!


 * Elsa never showed any attraction to women in the movie.

Ooooh >^< Yes, in short, that's true, but that misses the point of the story. She didn't kiss a guy (or a girl) because she's straight, nor gay, nor bi, nor asexual, nor any sexuality. She didn't kiss someone because she shuts people out, she doesn't let anyone get close to her out of fear. It doesn't have to do with her sexuality, it has to do with the fact that she was afraid of her powers and hurting others, and because she was completely isolated. Of course she never got into a relationship. The exact same things can be said in reverse, and it would still make perfect sense: "Elsa never showed attraction to men in the movie, she must be gay." No, again, she doesn't show attraction to anyone because she has always shut people out her whole life, she never had a chance.


 * The world needs a gay Disney Princess! Little girls who are gay never get the proper representation that they need to see, they need to be shown that it's okay to be gay!


 * Disney should create new gay characters for LGBTQ+ representation, turning Elsa gay would be exploiting her popularity for political gain. Coco and Moana have shown in recent times that it's possible to create new minority characters that the world is ready to love, and this has also been proven in the past with Disney movies like Mulan, Pocahontas, Princess and the Frog, Aladdin and Hunchback of Notre Dame. Any minority can be represented, but they should be presented that way from the start, not changed into a token character.

It's WAY more complicated than this. Yes, I agree representation matters, and yes, creating an originally gay character would be fine, but it's not exactly like Disney is good at this (*cough* BeautyandtheBeast2017andeventhatistotallydebatableinit'sownright *cough*), and while it would make sense to see this as a way that Disney might be trying to look diverse and cool by turning a well known character gay, it's also valuable. People already love Elsa, and again, her entire story is about acceptance, this would align with that message well. This is all too similar to the argument of changing a white character like Annie to black, or male characters like the Ghostbusters to female characters. Regardless, blatantly changing her sexuality for political gain would be a huge risk regardless, especially if there's any contradictions to be dug up later.


 * Frozen and Elsa are popular with people who have different and contrasting beliefs on homosexuality and the LGBTQ+ lifestyle. Parents might prohibit their kids from watching Frozen 2 upon seeing Disney give Elsa a girlfriend if they don't want their young kids to see homosexuality. It would be unfair to those kids, Disney movies are family movies for everyone, they are marketed towards kids. If parents won't take their kids to see Frozen because Elsa has a girlfriend, the movie would bomb.

"Diverse views" includes people who support it too, you know. It's okay if parents don't want their kids watching a cartoon who's into chicks, and it's their right to hide it from them. However, it is them who must accept that they can't protect their children from all people who might be different from them, and there are a LOT. It is them who will have to explain why they chose that if they're child turns out to be homosexual and confused/angry/upset that they were confused about themselves due to it being hidden from them the whole time. None of this is Disney's fault and Disney should not care, the fault lays entirely on the parents if they never get to watch Frozen 2. Can you imagine the backlash this would be getting if someone said, "I just don't want to expose my children to Mulan, Disney is being unfair to my kids by making her Asian so they can't watch it." No one would side with the notion that it's Disney's fault instead of the parents. Additionally, there would most likely be a lot of adults viewing the movie regardless to see how it actually performs in the sense of representation and for political reasons, this could either be a blessing or a curse for Disney, but they would still make money off it. Disney movies are marketed towards kids, but there is some value in that in it's own right. I would actually be very concerned with bullying based off of someone's parent's disallowing them from seeing a very popular movie. There could also be bullying over relating to Elsa now being mocked because she's a lesbian. Children with homophobic parent's may suddenly hate Elsa and Frozen entirely and feel she's "sinful", if they are also religious. Many things could go wrong, such as the representation just being crappy to begin with, it could turn into a huge embarrassment for Disney and a cringy meme on the internet if done wrong in any way, people will be looking to tear it apart immediately.


 * Elsa accepting her ice powers is a metaphor for homosexuality and the struggle of gay youth and young adults today. 


 * Many people relate to Elsa because her difficulties with her ice powers and accepting them are a metaphorical story for anyone who feels different from other people. It would be unfair to the people who relate to Elsa for alternative reasons if they lost their connection to the character from Disney making her gay.

Not necessarily, I would say it's easiest to assign her ice magic as anxiety, which matches how she describes it as well. However, the more you think about it, the more it makes sense that it could be a metaphor for homosexuality. It would make sense for her to describe it as a "curse" considering that many people assume it's something you choose as opposed to something you are born with (I don't have a definitive opinion for which it is and I think it's inherently ignorant to assume either). But then again, it falls apart just as easily. How would being gay make sense with when she sings "let the storm rage on"? That implies it's something you not only choose but is also harmful, storms aren't good, and especially not in the context of a snow storm. I get that it's quote-unquote empowering to associate something powerful like a snow storm to being gay, especially if you feel powerless in your own life as a gay person, but it makes little sense once dissected. What would Olaf and Marshmallow represent? What would the ice palace represent? What does Anna, her sister have to do with her acceptance of her sexuality? You see? That's why it being a metaphor for anxiety works so much better, though not perfectly (which I can elaborate more on). Yes, it makes sense that Elsa would be afraid of judgement and persecution for being gay, but it makes more sense that "fear would be her greatest enemy" due to her feeling she's going to royally mess up something huge and important because she couldn't focus due to overpowering anxiety. Also, it wouldn't be "unfair to the straights" as one could claim it's already unfair, after all, with this logic, how could anyone who isn't extremely white with blue eyes and VERY conventionally attractive possibly relate to her or Anna? See? Doesn't make as much sense, huh? If people can relate to her even though she's the whitest white then why can't they relate to her if she's like the gayest gay? OH YEAH! Because white is the majority and gay is a minority! Oops, silly me, I forgot that it's only "unrelatable" if the majority says so! Honestly, anyone who feels Elsa would be "ruined" for liking girls like boys like girls is just being ignorant. Honestly, just replace "gay" with anything else and you'll see all the holes in this argument: "What?? Elsa's gay?! Now she's ruined because I can't relate to her, I'm straight!" "What?? Elsa's an introvert?! Now she's ruined because I can't relate to her, I'm extroverted!" "What?? Elsa's a dog person?! Now she's ruined because I can't relate to her, I'm a cat person!" or, alternatively, if you want a more serious comparison, "What?? Elsa's a Polytheist?! Now she's ruined because I can't relate to her, I'm a Christian!" You're also forgetting about Merida, who's movie actually does tackle the issue and goes full out doing it.

'''Most importantly, Elsa's story is about acceptance. Not just of herself, but of her family and people accepting her as well. The people who say she would be "ruined" are the people who scare Elsa in the first place.''' Yeah, that kinda makes things a bit clearer, huh?

Now, for my own opinion, I think this has become WAY more of a character study than I meant it to. Back on track,

Should Elsa get romantically involved?

I don't care.

Should Elsa get a girlfriend?

I don't care.

Should Elsa get a boyfriend?

I don't care.

You know what I do care about? I care about a good story. I care about a character that is introduced without being obvious that they're a token character, I care about a character being added who actually progresses the story forward and is interesting.

Do I care if they kiss Elsa?

Not really.

Do I care if they kiss Elsa and are a girl?

Not at all.

I don't care if Elsa gets a girlfriend, I don't care if Elsa gets a boyfriend, but if she does, this is what I want:

I want a character that cares about Elsa, not her throne. I want a character that helps her through her anxiety, I want a character that helps Elsa grow and motivates her, making her an active character. I want a character that genuinely loves Elsa, and what's between their legs doesn't matter to me. And hey, if they also have powers, too? That's okay with me as well.

Above all, I want a good story, I don't care if it's only about Elsa and Anna again. You know what I don't want? The internet losing it's freaking mind because they didn't get the exact character they wanted. I don't want fans turning on the movie and being the literal villains of the first. The moral of the first movie is that true loves comes in many forms and people need to be accepting of other's regardless of their differences, that's why it's okay that Elsa and Anna love each other but that Anna also loves Kristoff. That's why Hans, the one who pretends to love, is the literal villain. After all, "some people are worth melting for." and it would be REALLY COOL if everyone understood that message. What happened to, "I don't care what they're going to say, let the storm rage on"?

Most importantly, I don't want the story being sacrificed for the relationship. And PLEASE I REALLY don't want another liar revealed story unless they can actually make it good!

However, one last thing to consider and something I think people are overlooking too much is the fact that since she's the Queen, she'll probably need heirs. Yep.

Updates
The time of when the re-watch occurs will be entered here

As stated on my Profile (December 18, 2018), I plan to re-watch this movie in the future as part of a project on another Wiki I'm the Admin and Bureaucrat on. I have a long and complicated relationship with this movie and it's fandom, and it isn't exactly the best. I'll probably post that all in a blog post or under my Username, though, as it is something I would like to document officially, like a review.

Once I am done watching the movie again and complete the project then I shall write down all my thoughts regarding it and the hashtag, plus how I interpret Elsa's ice magic, most likely as a metaphor for an anxiety disorder.

Please note that I don't own nor have access to any books based off of or featuring Frozen, so it is very unlikely that I will give any thoughts on those unless I one day have the chance to read them. I do have some featuring the original Disney Princesses, but those are all over a decade old, so no sign of Frozen there.

Frozen

 * ''Elsa's ice powers have always been a metaphor for mental health.

WIP